I think that had to do with the actual signing of the treaty. Who the key players were and so forth. Fortunately Secretary Bentsen said, No, not fine. So there was a rather constant process of monitoring, assessing, adjusting, going on that way. He may have kicked it off in a certain sense, but it has continued even more strongly to some degree in the last couple of years, but that was another broad historical development, critical historical development, which characterized the Clinton period. I might have if I had not known Bob Rubin, but I knew him better than anybody else in the administration knew him and I had great confidence in him and knew that he and I would relate well. But with regard to deficit reduction. Well, there was, like most administrations, kind of a running shakeup. It wasnt going to be a war between the United States and the Soviet Union. Ive seen it happen so often in business as well as in government. All types of dire predictions were put forward. Then we had the meeting downstairs in the Governors mansion, in a study or a library, the same room actually wed been meeting in on Putting People First a few months earlier. I mean, after all, Whitewater ultimately amounted to nothing. I mean, I could imagine that in your tenure, the perception might have been quite the reverse, but I dont know. The economic plan was, to some degree, controversial from the beginning because of the tax increases and some feeling that the deficit reduction was unnecessary or could be counterproductive. Clinton had in fact been working on Capitol Hill during this time and I guess I was just trying to get a sense about whether that was unusual. You can have half of it, or something to that effect. Im not sure thats true or it isnt. Well, yes, Carter tried a version of that. Somethings pretty strange here. But, no, they couldnt have been more cooperative. Of course we learned quickly that these were really difficult negotiations. No. Then I came upstairs, Hillary was there. I started doing a lot of the same thing Id done on the economic plan: radio shows, television stuff, running around the country. Was that true of Georgetown at the time that you were there? Its a matter of record that I was not asked to resign, but Bentsen, a couple of weeks after the hearings were over, asked me, What do you really want to do? Bob Rubin talked with great credibility about the bond market responding, and James Carville was so amusing for so long afterwards saying he wanted to come back in his next life and be the bond market because everybody paid such fealty to it. Yes, and Im sure that any number of opponents to the Presidents plan were sincere in their expectation that it wouldnt work. Well, if you were to ask me for a moment when looking back on it, one could perhaps see that we were moving into a new period of partisanship, I would have chosen instead the [Robert] Bork battle, which I think changed quite dramatically the whole process on Supreme Court nominations and the grounds on which they were debated. Thats something we dont have a lot of information about. You had three candidates on the stage during the debates and so forth. As I say, we assembled sometime between the 20th and 25th of November in Washington and then December 5th or 6th or 7th or whatever it was he made his choices. Which did he bond most closely with and were there instances where there were tough nuts for him to crack? You think that a lot of Republicans who didnt support it would say, Well, theres a little justice in the world because Bush 41 paid the price for having a compromise in 1990 that, along the lines of the 1993 bill, did help restore some fiscal discipline to the U.S. I mean, I just thought he was such a hero. No. Im Gary Burtless. This had been the thrust of the campaign, so expectations were very high that Clinton would come forward with a real economic program, a comprehensive program, and from the moment that all these folks were chosen the question was, what is that program going to be? Hundreds of meetings over many months, also similar to those original meetings, too many people, too long, too many people talking and so forth. There was some action forcing the schedule and the President would have had to ditch the treaty, just say, Ive decided Im not for it. Will policy differences be the reason that candidate X or candidate Y emerges with the nomination? There was concern that we had already spilled an enormous amount of blood on the economic plan. Pretty difficult to make major progress in that context. I think part of him saw an embrace of NAFTA as an opportunity to reestablish that he was a person of conviction, that he wasnt just in the pocket of the old traditional Democratic constituencies, wasnt just a tax-raiser and spender. Clinton gave his State of the Union address, the 28th of January, eight days after being inaugurated. So the traditional Democratic field has had in it a few candidates who represent that. Then late one afternoon, early evening I guess, 7 oclock, in the transition office in Washington, Warren Christopher called me. And Bentsen, who full knew this was going to be on the front page of the Wall Street Journal said, Im not in the Senate. I was just going to make an observation about history, historians and non-historians who study Presidents past and present. I can vote against it, tell my constituents Ill never support a tax increase. But therein, to some degree, lay the opportunity for Clinton to re-establish his credentials as a man of conviction. I just never took him seriously as a candidate. I raise the question because one of the outside perceptions that you get later on is when, in the early post-election period of the administration, theres some considerable debate within the administration about which of the priorities ought to come first, and among some of the people that you mentioned in Little Rock at the time. Of course Mack McLarty was there and all theif I can call them factionswere represented. There are some very famous stories about Bentsens war experience. Three-quarters of the people who go into the Cabinet never want to leave it, its great being a Cabinet officer. It wasnt between the political people and the policy people, it was among the policy people and involving some of the political people. I started getting inundated with letters from Congress asking how the RTC intended to handle this, stirred up by this Republican campaign. The film director, known for making films that are highly naturalistic, but with a stylized And we had the same in the Carter administration, but it had been more junior. In retrospect, a limited, very grudging change. But was there any perspective then that in fact, the Japanese economy was weak relative to the other G7? Bentsen and Dole were very close friends, which is a measure of the stature that Bentsen had. Ive known many members. They were done among the United States, Mexico, and the Congressional parties involved. No, there were 20-22 people there. Thomas Jefferson is under-appreciated as a President. But as often happens, there is a moment when positions shift. But my guess is that those kinds of. In general, no. TR, extraordinarily colorful President. You should have asked me about the vote, unless youve already talked to enough people about it. I think so, yes. People forget that, even today. Kerrey made a quite dramatic speech, rather excoriating Clinton, urged Clinton to get back on the high road and so forth and then cast the vote and Gore cast the tie-breaking vote and thats how it happened. Do you have any recollections or observations about the President in that environment? Ive seen Washington battles and that wasnt one of them. In any event, we didnt have a currency crisis at the time of that summit, or really didnt have one until the very middle, latter stages of the Clinton years. Many people consider him, many of his opponents considered him to be setting new heights of insincerity and to have misrepresented a lot of his past. And the reason he wasntnothing to do with Senator Kennedy himself. Was it Mickey Kantor? Hes pointing to the right-hand column of theWall Street Journal. I think any President who is either fortunate enough or skillful enough to preside over a period of peace, at least as far as American soil and American forces are concerned, deserves credit either for his good luck or his skill. No one thought on the morning of the election that Clinton was going to lose and Bush was going to win. He said he wanted to tell me that the President had decided to appoint Bentsen to be Secretary of the Treasury and Rubin to be head of the National Economic Council. I cant recall what year it was but it was in the late 80s, and now its seven or eight thousand, actually up toward nine, but has more or less slid ever since. Senator Kennedy was for it from day one. Had there always been a sense on your part that your likely posting in the administration would be in Treasury or. In the last 48 or 72 hours, because that vote was also a cliffhanger, although not as close. But the program wasnt structured that would give you half a loaf, was it? How are people in the future to understand why this became such a polarized situation with Congress? Were you consulting with the President occasionally after you left Washington and came back to New York? Not particularly. As has been, as I said, so widely chronicled, the focus was on the economy because the economy was sluggish, in a recessionary state. But apropos of my comments earlier that classic, unreconstructed liberalism had never been my cup of tea, I never identified with Mario Cuomo. So heres a person who knew how to manage himself. Was there a group of people who were helping him on the policy side respective to economics? There were quite a few members where I had lead day-to-day responsibility. We still joke about that today. Had run successfully for Vice President. My opponent is distracted by international and other matters. We had to be sure Mexico could live with it. He knew that if we lost this vote it was a severe blow. So I said, Well then, thats the course Im going to take. But I worked on a lot of members of Congress, I enjoyed that, I just did. Then maybe half of them we discussed about this person, that person. So that was the revelation, so to speak, that occurred that day. The presumption of course at the beginning was that I knew what the substance of the investigation was, or what the actual issues were from an investigatory legal point of view, and that I had conveyed that to the White House, which was impossible by its turn, absolutely impossible, but in politics thats not often the important thing. Did it come out of Arkansas? Those would be the main points Id mention. On preparing a whole set of materials and otherwise paving the way for Secretary Bentsen to walk into his office and be fully prepared to function from the first minute. I said I would and we went forward. Actually the bigger debate was over what came after NAFTA, welfare reform or healthcare. I dont believe Yeltsin attended the summit, but there was a lot of focus on Russia and what the G7 could do for Russia at that summit, so it was all kind of nice, uplifting stuff. I think Bush inspires greater loyalty than Clinton, just does. But it really was quite effective because one needed a military-like approach with only five or six weeks to go, and that bill was in trouble. He could have been all rhetorical about it. But Clinton went for it, Clinton listened, Clinton deserves tremendous credit. The politics of personal destruction as Mrs. Clinton is saying now on her book tour, common in American history, nothing new about it at all. Who was the coordinator, if any, in the first follow up? We didnt know if we were going to win. That was on a Friday evening. On the other hand, in the Carter White House it worked very poorly. I think well probably want to pick up there and find out about that experience. But anyway, in retrospect it was a very bad idea. No. Was there awareness at that time, I mean, in the perspective of 2003, I recognize the world looks different. He demonstrated his phenomenal grasp of policy issues, just through sitting there for many hours a day. But a very useful one. So we already had quite a taste of the Congressional dynamic and overall political dynamic. I traveled to Japan a lot on business. He had a certain way of carrying himself and a certain sense of very carefully managing his own stature. So it was a combination of an organized role. My view, theres no single answer to that at all, but if I were to list the elements of my response, the first one would be post-election. But yes, we had meetings in his hotel room at three in the morning. I guess that again leads to the question about the uncertainty and anxiety of a transition period, trying to figure out which person. That was just an amazing experience. Was there a contrasting case in your experience in the Clinton administration where support was received both sides of the aisle and soughtwas it sought in the budget case? No I dont. That certainly, in terms of social assistance to low-income working age people, that was a transformative administration. How do you think Clinton ultimately is going to be read by historians, this Presidency? The Secretary of the Treasury is not regularly informed of investigations that the Secret Service is doing, unless theres some special emergency reason to do it. Im convinced to this day that sent a bolt of electricity through the Iranians and they figured they better not hold those hostages one hour into Ronald Reagans Presidency, and they didnt. But thats an example of the type of stuff the Deputy Secretary does. You never saw, one time, Bob Rubin do that, not one time, after he left. But in any event, it hasnt ended with President Clintons leaving. Were seeing it today. Then, that sent the ball in motion so to speak, in terms of that being the focus of discussion, although the senior members of that group were pretty united on the fact that we should make a real effort on the deficit. I have a very old-fashioned view about that. That day I knew we were headed for defeat. There were probably 25 major separate deals negotiated to win the passage. Its not as simple as that. But you think that by January 20th, this basic division of the fundamental economic policy. Its probably strange humor in this instance. So two points: one, I support what the President did and I think he deserves a lot of credit for it. But Clinton really got into it. No, I dont remember the actual moment when we met. Working on the Hill, traveling? I just want to make one point. It was quite a full-bore effort. Sure, Greenspan was in favor of deficit reduction, so when the administration came forward with an actual deficit reduction plan, which, as we all know, was a bit unexpected, Greenspan supported it, testified for it and so forth. Web(Studio: Charles Gibson) Earlier interview held with Evercore Partners Roger Altman about the House vote and the market reaction. Way back in season one of Shameless, Fiona got a housekeeping job at a hotel. Mexican trucking, citrus, tomatoes, Im not joking. I had really not fully ever grasped from my Wall Street days, that there was a great big regulatory side to it including enforcement side, where the RTC was also charged with pursuing investigations against former thrift officials and ultimately prosecuting them if circumstances warranted. You referred earlier to Garys question that most of the decisions that Clinton made about his priorities came post-election, but the process. And trade was one of Clintons priorities and of course NAFTA was followed by a series of other trade agreements, GATT [General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade] and so forth. Everything is susceptible to being phased in, to being cut back, to being pilot-programmed. Lloyd Bentsen was the very first person we tried when this whole project started, on the urging also of Clintons people because of his age, and they didnt know at that time that he was as ill as he was. Those things were at a peak in 94, just at the time healthcare was on the table. I dont know whether his Presidency will be seen as one of the most important or transformative in American history. Thats not particularly my recollection, no. Somehow it came off successfully in Miami with all these heads of state and everybody was very happy with it. Now remember, Clinton had said he was going to cut the deficit in half. I also think it is wrong politically. For example, I said earlier, the National Economic Council is not a new idea at all, that the Ford administration had its version, Nixon had his version, and so forth. Those are my exact words. Hed been shot eight times. We might have a thousand independent counsels operating under the freedom of the press, investigations. The great Presidents that you mentioned, the ones that loom large, as you said, are all crisis Presidents. I mean, we had these discussions, we had these ways to measure progress and so forth, that sometimes alarmed economists in the United States because they seemed protectionist. So Im sure therell be another independent counsel. I worked in the White House. WebBy tlp333 @ 2008-03-23 21:45:51. No, it never got to a vote. Lets face it, NAFTA has worked. So it was just a very unusual evening. If you read Putting People First, first of all it was domestic policy as a whole, it was not just economic policy. Im Jim Young. You asked me when the most important policy development occurred and I would say there are several answers to that but number one would be post election, not pre-election. I think there were missed opportunities, yes; I dont believe they would have made a big difference however. One of the initial ideas was an energy tax. If you think about it, it makes lots of sense. I was on the board of the Childrens Television Workshop, now called the Sesame Workshop, the entity that produces Sesame Street and related childrens programming. I can recall David Halberstam on the way out saying to me that he never heard a politician as effective as Clinton since JFK [John Fitzgerald Kennedy]. By that time we were all being treated very well by the campaign because we were seen as the guys who were there at the beginning. I also learned that when I saw that, it wasnt likely to ultimately succeed. Well, Theodore Roosevelt is a fascinating President, mostly by dint of his gargantuan personality and the way that he bestrode the country like some titanic figure. The independent counsel statute had, if my memory serves, expired during the Clinton first year, then was revived, and then was allowed again to expire. I wasnt there because I was an expert in tax policy. That was absolutely true also of Secretary Brady and all of his people, couldnt have been more cooperative. Some people thought they were misguided. Actually I delivered mine to great jocular reaction, but then Gene Sperling stood up and he talked about the ten reasons why this was a good bill. That was a wonderful comment. We were both quite active in student government. WebKathryn Reed Altman and Roger Altman attend State of the Union Dinner at The Re-Opening of the Plaza Hotel Ballroom on January 28, 2008 in New York Roger Altman and Mayor Michael Bloomberg attend THIRTEEN and WLIW 21 Annual Gala Salute at Gotham Hall on April 30, 2007 in New York City. No because Clinton had determined, as he well should havesee, Presidents often dont do this, or Presidents-elect, but they shouldBentsen had to be satisfied that this was something he wanted. WebRoger Altman is Founder and Senior Chairman of Evercore, the most active independent investment bank in the world today. Yes, but the independent counsel is not a Clinton-era novelty. You can do it through tax increases and then you have to choose the tax, and you can do it through spending reductions and you have to choose the area youre going to focus on. It was killed when Senator [Donald] Riegle, the chairman of the Banking Committee, announced that he would oppose it, so that was the end of that. I dont recall precisely, but Im sure Im right that Clintons standing in the polls was ebbing. Of course it was a very small kind of backwater type of situation, not a big one. The first thing that we typically do is a quick voice identification so that the transcriptionist will know whos talking at any given time.Im Russell Riley, the project leader for the Clinton Presidential History Project. I think Clinton will come out pretty well. Yes, because obviously I was seen as somebody who had business credentials to some degree, conservative credentials, by Democratic standards at least. Were you making recommendations to him about how you might tighten things up in this area? There were certain others, I cant recall now, but a group of six or eight or nine, and we literally sat around with pieces of paper and drafts and hammered it out. Altman Thats true, yes. One is that it had a very rocky beginning in New Hampshire, and Im wondering if you have recollections about your reaction to the news events that occurred and to the electoral results in New Hampshire and how the President was able to deal with those things. Then, I was in Tokyo. Yes I was asked to be part of that enterprise, but much later in the process. So the dynamic between the two was quite an interesting dynamic and quite quicklyto come to your pointafter the stimulus plan went down, Clinton began deferring to Bentsen on everything. I spoke in this wonderful old hall, in the legislative building, legislative chamber, it was great. I remember that vividly the day of the convention, the morning the convention ended, or maybe the morning after it ended. Within a month, I remember vividly one day, I had seven radio shows. I was in Tokyo with President Clinton, the Tokyo Economic Summit and Id made several trips to Tokyo paving the way for that. Concessions involving individual members of Congress could often be done at a lower level, depending on the magnitude of the concession. Of course that depends on the moment in question. It was not as big a change as it was advertised to be, or has been seen historically. As I remember the NAFTA campaign was kicked off only a month or two later. You say you knew Rubin well, but did you have a sense that in the other places where economic policy-making is made there was ever any tension over this kind of an arrangement? Well, it can be revived at any time, the Congress can just vote to revive it. It was a few votes, not one vote. You know, she made comments like I could have stayed home and baked cookies but I decided to be a real person, which served to severely antagonize a lot of traditionalists. Well, not really. He was not confronted with a grave crisis, but I think history will treat him very well, because essentially. David Gergen was brought, which I think was probably the fall of 93 and Panetta replaced Mackthat was an awfully big event, of course. Stay as long as you can figure out how to cling to it. They talked all the time. A certain candidate or two will be perceived as the heavyweights in the field, and thats an amorphous thing, but you become anointed that way by the media, and if you have the right set of political skills you can capitalize on it. I was just in awe of people like that. There ensued a quite Byzantine process, as has been so widely written about with multiple task forces and enormous numbers of people involved.There were a lot of these Bill Clinton-style meetings, great big long meetings with far too many people in the room. So I ended up serving in this job for 12 or 13 months, and I had a very disciplined approach to it. So, in August whatever it was the final vote was cast and the economic bill became lawwell, with the Presidents signature it became lawwe didnt really know what we were going to do on NAFTA. Nobody knew, especially in the White House. The notion, by the way, in Bob Woodwards book, The Agenda, that Greenspan was hovering over the proceedings like an angel of death is completely fictitious. Could you tell us what your portfolio was within Treasury and what your primary responsibilities were? But I think in Washington, except in dire emergencies, politics rules, and most Republicans had the view that they would rather die than vote for a tax increase. I mean one of the oldest rules of Presidential management is, take your pain up front. The war room was very effective for Clinton, and of course, it was to some degree patterned after the war room in the campaign, which was then the object of an interesting film among other things. But I really could never figure that out. I dont think I would have known otherwise. We can go into that in a little more depth, the pure politics part of it. Its worth asking. I was given an office over in the Treasury. So hes the one who asked you to serve in that position, not Clinton. So I think you had a President who was seen as very slickand he had that reputation before he became Presidentand then this upsurge in partisanship generally. By and large, most of the members of the Finance Committee in the Senate and the Ways and Means Committee in the House. But that was fairly brief, though. I dont think its wholly right becauseand this may sound strange coming from mePresident Reagan I think will be seen very favorably by historians, mostly because hell be seen as the man who ended the Cold War, and Reagan didnt have to take the position of aggressive anti-Soviet behavior, but he did. But its interesting to put it into perspective. So its also part of the Treasury tradition to do it that way. It really wasnt that way. Were you privy to the conversations that he had? I didnt think it was going to be that bad. At the end of the lunch he asked me if I would serve as Deputy Secretary and I said I would. But it wasnt political on one hand, policy on the other, just different ideologies. The second was the evolution of the deficit estimates during that period. The two camps were right there sitting in front of the President for six hours at a time. I mean, there are libraries full of books that have already been written about that. Bentsen was chosen during the first week of December. Is this before the beginning of the year or. I recall speaking about 20 minutes before the vote to Marjorie MargoliesMezvinsky,with whom I had developed a friendship, and it became evident to me that she was very reluctant but willing to vote for the bill. NAFTA had much broader support among the so-called or self-styled elites, the business leadership, all the economics community, the foreign policy establishment. No, I was responding to a question about economic policy. We then embarked on a search for a candidate and give or take three or four months later found one who, ironically, was a Republican. So there were four, Fiske and the other three, and they all came to the same conclusion, and the latter three also addressed the question of whether any of the government ethical guidelines had been violated and they all concluded no, they hadnt been. So I served in that job for give or take a year, and I never had a single meeting on an investigation nor did any of my predecessors, just wasnt done, wasnt necessary, and so forth. You raised this issue with respect to the designation of sub-Cabinet officers. Did you go to Little Rock for the election? You had the bilateral talks with the Japanese and the G7 format. I think I testified before the Senate for about thirteen consecutive hours and six or eight hours on the House side the very next day. By that time, Clinton had his idea of the middle-class tax cut, and he had his idea of cutting the deficit in half during his first term, I think it was. Thats a different issue. Clinton is nothing if not rigid. Not giving it a lot of thought, frankly, I said, Sure. His Presidency itself I think was a very strong one, but it doesnt make it into the top five or six. At my sons school, on the floor where the history department is, each President gets a little tiny picture and about two lines. That was the all-time low for the dollar. He observed to me right off the bat that this was going to be very complicated and no cakewalk, right off the bat. I believe Perots presence helped Clinton because Perot kept saying how messed up the country was, so that actually helped the challenger rather than the incumbent. It wasnt difficult. It wasnt a process where people were maneuvering furiously to see who could get the last word in to the President or something. 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